I’m glad you’ve found so many of Jesus Christ’s words condemning homosexuality, since he is the center of our faith.

I don’t see much point in engaging in word-wars, since people who hate gay people know the words very well but, like the Pharisees, cannot see their own sins and spend their time condemning others.

However, please read our Biblical reasoning before throwing mis-interpreted Bible quotes at us. We want to debate and discuss but not when that is cloaked in condemnation and intolerance, not to mention grossly abusing our shared Scriptures.

Leviticus is irrelevant because Jesus overcame the ritual purity laws with Love, and except for the ultra-Orthodox, very few Jews or Christians today obey any of the laws in Leviticus - neither the laws governing sacrifice, nor those ordering the elimination of all debts.

You forgot about St Paul’s words in Romans immediately following the passage you quote calling for punishment of the “perverted.” (which if you read Paul literally, means you support “God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die” -Romans 1:32)

Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgement on another you condemn yourself. (Romans 2:1)

Unless you are completely perfect and holy yourself, heed Paul’s warning yourself.

I am a follower of Christ. I love Him with all my heart and have the fear of the Lord in me. I do not hate homosexuals. I do not judge them or treat them any differently than I do anyone else. I do not oppose having gay ppl in the church.
My problem is with people trying to change their religion to fit their lifestyle, when what we should be doing instead is changing our lifestyles to fit our religion. I do not feel it is right to try to make churches bless same-sex marriages.
I did read Biblical Reasoning.
And I am not in any way trying to say that in the eyes of God gay people are lesser than straight people. I do believe that He loves everybody just the same and that He will forgive the sins of whoever asks his forgiveness. I do not believe that homosexuality is worse than any other sin, such as lying or stealing, in fact if being homosexual is your only sin than you are doing better than most, but, to me, trying to get churches to bless the same-sex unions is like having the church blessing other sins, lying or stealing.
Let me say again that I do not believe that homosexuals are bad people!! I have gay friends and love them as much as my other friends.
I am not judging. I am simply looking out for your souls. It scares me to think that so many people will end up in Hell. Of course, I may be wrong and the reasoning in your pamphlet could be true... I know some of God's words have been lost in translation. It is unfortunate but true. I guess the point is though that so long as we all treat each other with love and respect, and continue to seek wisdom, and continue to seek God, we should all support each other.
I was not trying to make you feel badly, or pass judgment with my previous posting, I apologize. Of course i should have written more of what I was thinking but it was late, I was tired.
I also forgive you for your hostile response ;)

God Bless!

Hi again,

I'm sorry, I get defensive when people quote the Bible at me without context - I am scared of our Holy Scriptures being used as a weapon, and I'm sure you've seen that happen in our world. But I didn't mean to be so hostile in my response.

One thing I strongly agree with you on is that religion should not be forced to change because of lifestyle.

We live in a world where religion has been captured by powerful interests and effectively hijacked - this is not new however, and goes right back to the "Holy" Roman Empire 1600 years ago, when the Church stopped being persecuted and became powerful and corrupted. Today, we are corrupting our faith as we destroy God's beautiful creation, treat the poor and oppressed with indifference, and engage in wars that kill thousands.

For me, reading the Scriptures - especially the teachings of the Prophets (Jeremiah, Isaiah and Micah in particular) and the Gospels (in particular the Sermon on the Mount, the Good Samaritan, and the Great Teaching to love neighbour as self) - leads me to truly believe that God is more concerned about how WE are as a society, and espcially how we treat the poor, oppressed and rejected, how we care for the most despised among us, and whether we turn from injustice and sin, towards faithful love for all.

I'm pretty sure most Christians would agree with that, however, many of us don't put much emphasis on collective, social, sin as we do on personal morality (instead, Christians focus on divisive issues like homosexuality, abortion, and personal belief). I think the emphasis has become too much on the personal, when the God of the prophets addressed the entire nation - and confronted us on our injustice, indifference, and hypocrisy.

It's a matter of interpretation - you and I read the same Holy Scriptures with different lenses. Thank you for reading our pamphlet - it seems that most people who attack our ministry do so out of reaction and won't acknowledge that we seek to follow God's Word as much as they do. That's a starting point for dialogue (of course, you're still welcome to say we're WRONG in our interpretation, and we can do the same - we're still part of Christ's body and can pray with each other, I hope, and know we are deeply connected).

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

In Christ the Liberator
david

Thanks for your lengthy response to SCM stand on same-sex blessings. I'm so excited that people care enough to respond and debate. Which is the whole point of this website.

I have also read *most* of the Bible through, and I don't think 'reading' is simply enough because who knows what kind of interpretation I have. I centre my life on the teachings of Jesus and the prophets and try to read every single day, spending a good time with each paragraph. As you can see, you very strongly reject my understanding of our sacred scriptures. How do we resolve this conflict? Pulling "I read the whole Bible" in an argument doesn't work here and isn't the main point anyway. I yearn to be a cup clean on the inside and the outside, not just following the strictures of rules and regulations, as the Pharisees did, but faith of the heart and devotion to God.

A point on sin I get from Manning's 'Ragamuffin Gospel' - and he is from the Evangelical side of theology - is that if we withhold blessing and loving and embracing others we disagree with or despise (or whose lifestyles we despise) we don't understand God's free gift of grace poured out. (I sense you'd agree, since you'd accept gay people into your church).

Second, what sins do you and I commit that would cast us out of God's blessing? Seriously - do you wear clothing of multiple fabrics (that was a sin - or at least ritually impure, just as certain homosexual behaviours were claimed to be) - that is forbidden in Leviticus.

Do you drive a car? (I do occasionally, and I fly more than I should). The Bible says God will "destroy those who destroy the earth" (Rev 11:18). Driving and flying are destroying God's earth entrusted to us. We are sinning in our inaction.

Do you work to end Canada and the U.S.'s wars overseas, which actually kill thousands of people - after all, "thou shalt not kill."

Our whole economic system and worldview is not only anti-Christian, but idolatrous - we worship money, power and the market, not to mention our own technology. Don't tell me that homosexuality is more "black and white" than this because A) people and the earth are actually dying around us and God calls us to respond; and B) Jesus NEVER spoke of sexuality but raged against injustice, poverty and - this is crucial - the stigmatization/exclusion of society's untouchables. Even women who were considers sinners and nobodies.

At least acknowledge that sexual minorities are considered such sinners and outsiders and nobodies - hence the discrimination, suicide, murder, lynchings and lives ruined by homo-hatred.

Maybe you should read your Bible again. Starting with the Gospels.

In Christ
david

"is that if we withhold blessing and loving and embracing others we disagree with or despise (or whose lifestyles we despise) we don't understand God's free gift of grace poured out" Accepting a sinful lifestyle is sinful in nature. No act of sin can be an act of love if you love someone you dont accept their sinful nature, you tell them its sinful. Blessing someones sin is an act of justification, sin is not justifiable by God so it is sinful for man to justify sin by blessing it when it is blatantly an act against God. "We dont understand God gift of grace" God's gift of grace is not about God conforming to your sinful lifestyles or by conforming to others sinful lifestyles, God's grace is about being conformed to God's standards trying to achieve his standards.

Thanks for your reply, and I do appreciate it. I apologise for coming across as trying to say that by reading the Bible I had some kind of superior thing or something, if indeed I'm getting the gist of your reply. If not, sorry. I didn't mean to imply that makes my view any more valid or whatever. All I was trying to do was say that in my reading of it I had never seen any proof of God condoning anything like the blessing of same sex union. I am thankful for God's grace, and I am thankful that it is by faith alone that we're saved. I do NOT hate homosexuals; rather, I hate the sin of what they do. They do deserve grace as much as anyone, but it is their homosexual sins that God abhors, not the people themselves. If I implied that we're going to be cast out of God's grace by any of our sins, I did not mean that, and I did not mean to imply that homosexuals will be cast out of God's grace, either. I just meant that I do not see how God can accept the blessing of same sex unions since it is blessing something that goes against His Word and what He wants for people. That is what I was trying to say.

"Maybe you should read your Bible again. Starting with the Gospels." What are you hoping that I will get by doing this? I read the Bible every day and have read through it many times, as I have already said. Every time I do the Holy Spirit opens my eyes to something else. Yet I cannot get past sin being sin, no matter what the sin is. I'm not trying to be antagonistic. Please believe me in this. I just want to understand where you're coming from and how you reached your conclusions.

By the way, yes, I do drive a car, but not often at all. My car sits idle a lot more than it's used. I do drive it if I have to go out of my town. The transit system here is pathetic, and taxis cost way more than I have to spend, and I do not feel guilty for the little bit that I drive my car. I do what I can for the earth, although I do focus on reaching others with the Gospel ahead of that. Still, I do my part by recycling and driving as little as I can. There are more things I do as well, but I don't really need to go into them here, and I don't think you were really expecting a response on those either.

Thanks again for your response. I would like to know ~ & I do ask this sincerely and with a desire to understand your POV and with openness ~ what it is you'd like me to get from reading the Bible yet again. I will continue to read it as I always have and continue to ask the Holy Spirit to guide me and to show me what He wants me to see as I read and to keep my heart open, and that is all I can really guarantee on that.

I do want to say that I do appreciate that you have a heart full of compassion and love for others. That is very clear from the comments and things I've seen on this site. May God bless you and use you mightily for Him and use you to bring His Gospel into all the places you go and through this website. After all, that's the ultimate goal of every Christian, or it should be ~ to reach the whole world with the Gospel and proclaim His Word to all. People just get sidetracked with other things, and I know that's far too common with me, unfortunately. Blessings!

It's whether a person gives in to the temptation or not. I do NOT believe that God created anyone to be homosexual, but anyone who's tempted deserves the grace and strength of God, not licence to give in to their temptations, no matter the sin. We're all sinners saved by grace as long as we're following the Word of God and following Jesus. It's by the power of the Holy Spirit that we're freed from bondage, and that's what needs to happen here, not condoning any sinful actions. How can any believer in the Word of God, which is inerrant and fully true and real and inspired and to be taken literally, say that homosexual unions should be blessed? I say have compassion on those in this lifestyle and help them to refrain from giving in to their temptations so that they can claim victory over sin, as we all need help with. Don't support their fight in saying that sin is right. I do NOT believe that we as Christians should be cruel or turn people away, no matter what they've done, and I do believe that compassion and acceptance is what needs to happen. Just do NOT condone sin as I see you doing here through SCM Canada.

If I sound judgemental, I apologise for that. I just do NOT see how anyone who calls him or herself a Christian and is following the Word of God can say that any sin is right; nor do I see how homosexuals can say that their sin (if they do indeed indulge in this sin) is acceptable to God. NO sin is acceptable to God. It's not for me to judge, and I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to get across the Truth here and that I see you all as condoning sin. How can you do that as Christians? Yes, we need to be compassionate and treating all people with love, but we need to fight sin and preach the Word and reach people with Truth and proclaim the Gospel.

Where does it say in the Bible that it is okay to drive a Hummer?

What does a Hummer have to do with the issue at hand? I don't get how this is comparable to the other person's question.

The problem with a Hummer, anonymous, is that they destroy the earth through fossil fuel emissions, thus revealing the deeply rooted sin of humans thinking we control God's creation, and also represent the luxuriant lifestyle and inequality of our idolatrous economic system - which will fall as any Empire has (remember the Romans?). Hey, read book of Revelations, it's all about the collapse of human-centred Empire that persecuted the early Christians.

The number of the beast, 666, is Hebrew (or Greek) numerology for "Emperor Caesar" - and I would say, the abomination of our 'peaceful' empire today which controls our entire world. And not to individualize this too much (since we are all part of this sinful system) but today's Caesars tend to drive Hummers.

I do agree that Hummers aren't good ~ I wasn't denying that ~ but I was wondering what they have to do with the issue on this page. What does environmentalism have to do with homosexuality and the proposition of blessing same sex unions? That's what I was wondering about. Answering the one question with another didn't answer the first question, but, instead, opened up a different line of thought, but that's just my opinion. If you can lead the two together, I'd love to see where they go. Really I would. I just don't see what the one has to do with the other, is all.

I suggest that you check out the Queer Bible studies.